With the arrogance of youth, I determined to do no less than to transform the world with Beauty. If I have succeeded in some small way, if only in one small corner of the world, amongst the men and women I love, then I shall count myself blessed, and blessed, and blessed, and the work goes on. -- William Morris

Wednesday, December 13, 2006

Quddouson Allah! Quddouson ul-qawee! Quddouson ulladhee la yamout! Irhamna*

Throughout the years, there has been considerable debate and confusion about the relationship between Christianity with Islam. Because they are two distinct religions with differing conceptions about God, many are of the opinion that Christians and Muslims do not worship the same God. Despite the fact that Arabic speaking Christians refer to God as Allah, many English speaking Christians even throw a continuous line of insults at Allah, even creating false etymologies for the origin of the title.

While one should not confuse the two religions as being one and the same, one should be able to recognize the two religions do indeed share one God in common, not only with one another, but also with the Jews. The God of Abraham is the God of Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

Vatican Council II states quite clearly the respect the Church has for Muslims. “The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God.” Nostra Aetate. 3.Vatican Translation.

Many people ask, “How can Muslims and Christians have the same God? Christians believe God is a Trinity, while Muslims only believe God is one person.” While it is true Christians and Muslims have vastly different understandings of God, this does not mean they do not worship and share God in common. This line of reasoning believes that an understanding of an object has to be the same between two different people in order for that one object to be one and the same for both people. This can be shown to be false in two ways. First, let us assume this is true. Since no two people, not even two Christians, have an identical understanding of God, no two people, not even two Christians, would have the same God. Secondly, and more importantly, let us take an object of understanding, for example, the Holy Bible. One person, a Christian, believes it is Holy Scripture revealed by God; the other person, an atheist, does not. Despite the different understandings these two people have about the text, it is still the same text, the same object that these two people have views about. The same applies for God: while the object of understanding is the same, the understanding of that object (God in this case) is different. By saying Christians and Muslims believe in the same God, no one is disputing this fact.

It is with this foundation that Christians and Muslims can begin to dialogue with one another in respect with one another as they should. Without it, dialogue becomes more difficult, and it quickly becomes a debate with participants from both sides talking against one another without listening to the other side. But once this is accepted, then further – and more difficult questions – can be asked and addressed.

For a Christian such as myself, who is interested in Islam, the truths contained in it, and what we share in common, many questions come to mind. Probably the first one is the status of Mohammad. Who was he? Was he a vile, warlike barbarian who corrupted the Arab nations leading them entirely astray? Again, if we believe Muslims and Christians share the same God (as Vatican Council II indicates, and as Popes have consistently reiterated in their dialogues with Muslims), then this cannot be the answer. Mohammad could not have been entirely wrong. If he were, he could not be pointing the Arabs, who were mostly polytheists, to the one God. Moreover, he could not be entirely vile if he led these same Arabs, mostly small petty tribes fighting against one another, into an order of peace and justice which had not been known by the Arabs at his time. “From its inception, Islam championed the formation of a new kind of human community, an umma, bound together by a common faith rather than kinship relations. This was a fundamental shift in the social paradigm of traditional Arabia, which had before centered on tribal and clan-based affinity systems.” Frederick M. Denny, “Islam and Peacebuilding” in Religion and Peacebuilding. Ed. Harold Coward and Gordon S. Smith (New York: SUNY, 2004), 131. While we might question the extent of this program, it is clear that not only did Mohammad work to overcome the blood feuds had by Arabs against each other in his time, and he even taught forgiveness was the of creating societal harmony (Surah 42:37- 40).

Can a Christian deny that Mohammad was right when he said Jesus was the Messiah, miraculously born of the Virgin Mary? Do not the Muslims believe that Jesus will come again to judge the living and the dead? Can the Catholic not even point to the Koran for its teaching of the perpetual virginity of Mary as a way of indicating how ancient and widespread this Marian teaching actually is?

That there is much in common between Islam and Christianity cannot be denied; if all that Mohammad taught was wrong, then what is in common with Christianity would be false as well. Someone might respond, “But Mohammad did not teach anything new.” To the Arabs he most certainly did, if not to the Christians.

Does this mean Christians should consider Mohammad to be what he claimed to be – a prophet of God – and that the Koran is also a revelation of God? These two claims are actually two separate ones. One could in theory believe Mohammad was a prophet of God and still not believe in the Koran. The Koran was compiled after Mohammad’s death, and there is much one can question as to the method and reason for its compilation. Probably it contains elements of Mohammad’s teaching, but is it all from Mohammad? If some and not all of it is from Mohammad, how do we identify the authentic with the inauthentic texts? Do we have quotes which are taken out of context and reinterpreted by the compiler? These questions are very difficult, if impossible, to answer. If the evidence one has that Mohammad is not a prophet rests upon the Koran, then the evidence is silent and one cannot make a conclusion. Even if one did take the whole of the Koran to be Mohammad’s words, one would still have to question the meaning and intent of the words – which admittedly are not as clear cut as many would have us believe. When we look at Surah 4:157, what does it actually mean?


That they said (in boast),
‘We have killed Christ Jesus
The Son of Mary
The Messenger of Allah’
But they killed him not.
Surah 4:157. Trans. Abdullah Yusuf Ali (Brentwood, Maryland: Amana Corporation, 1989).

One way to read this is to say Jesus was not killed. Muslim tradition would eventually make this the normative reading. But it was not the only one. Who is it that is saying ‘We have killed Christ Jesus?” Many Muslims scholars throughout history have said, “The Jews.” Yet did the Jews kill Jesus? No, it was the Romans. So even if he was crucified, this passage could be correct.

Interestingly enough, many Christians throughout history have taken Mohammad to be a prophet of God. They have either seen his message was later perverted by his followers (which would then not disqualify him as being a prophet; if it did, then Jesus is not a prophet because many Christians have perverted his message), or that his message was only a temporary, local message preparing the Arabs for the fullness of the Christian Gospel (such was the opinion of the Paul of Antioch.) Or, if one still thought it possible he was a prophet, one could see him a prophet like unto Balaam – one who spoke for God at times and at other times spoke out of his own human greed.

This is not to say a Christian should view him as a prophet, but they should be at least open to that possibility and not discount it based upon what happened in Arab society after Mohammad's death, even as they would not discount the Bible based upon the history of its interpretations. It is an open question and a question which Christians can respectfully engage in dialogue with Muslims.

Other questions also emerge when Christians seek good relations with Muslims. Certainly some of them are very vital, and not all of them are for Christians to consider. If Christians are indeed a People of the Book, why do Christians suffer much persecution and find life difficult in many Islamic nations? What can and should Muslims do to correct this terrible situation? How much of the way of life in an Islamic nation actually Muslim and how much of it is cultural? What aspects of the culture can be and should be changed to help Arab nations merge into the modern world? Certainly many Muslims have asked this question, and some of them have been among the greatest leaders in the work of peace and justice in modern times, such as Badshah Khan, Gandhi’s friend and ally in India.

Dialogue is two ways. Christians should realize that it is their duty, as followers of Jesus, to engage others in a loving and respectful way, even if they are shown scorn in return. We should not seek to ridicule and mock the faiths of others. The response is not an eye for an eye, but to find a way to make an enemy into a brother. If we lose sight of this, we lose sight of Jesus’ message. Why call him Lord if we do not do the things he says?


*The title of this entry comes from the Arabic recitation of the Trisagion Hymn, which in English goes, "Holy God, Holy and Might, Holy and Immortal, have mercy on us."

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6 Comments:

  • At 12/16/2006 12:08 PM, Blogger Brendan Sammon said…

    Henry,

    It's been some time, but finally my comps are finished.
    So, hopefully, I'll be checking in more frequently.

    I appreciate your post very much.
    It sincerely seeks to open avenues of dialogue between Christians and Muslims, and so, in line with the teachings of Unitatis Redintegratio and even Ut Unum sint, you draw out that unitive principle necessary for any dialogue to begin. So let me express how much I share your enterprise.

    In that spirit, and in the spirit of collegiality, I want to pose some challenges to you in light of what you wrote here.
    You do a nice job of drawing out the difference between what a thing is in itself, and what a thing is in relation to the subject. Your examples of differing ways of relating to God that obtain even between Christians, as well as the various ways Scripture is understood between a believer and an athiest, both touch upon the complexity between mind and being. It opens, then, a metaphysical component, and it is from this component that I would like to pose this challenge:

    Although you did not explicitly maintain this, and I know that it is not a principle you yourself espouse, the examples you gave bear a truth that is predicated upon the "thing-ness" of the object: God as 'thing', as 'the other to which we relate', or as 'extrinsic alterity'. In other words, the assumption behind both assertions - that two Christians relate differently to God, and that a beleiver and and an atheist each interprets the essence of Scripture differently - assumes that the object to which two disparate subjects relate is a completed, reified thing. This is more pronounced in the believer/atheist relation to Scripture, but it still seems at least present in the example of the various ways of understanding God between two Christians.

    Now, the point here is this: God is not any "thing" to which we human subjects relate. God is not some extrinsic other if by this we neglect the intrinsic dynamism by which and in which we are made into persons. God is the infinite beauty of being, who is constantly giving Himself to our act of being. God is no object since any conception of objectivity involves and requires limits. He does reveal Himself to us in and through objective revelation, but this is best understood (as it is in the work of Von Balthasar) as an overflow of objectivity; God's revelation is the objectivity that spills over into all subjects.

    Insofar as all human beings, then, are recipients and artisans of this overflow of God's offer of being, then indeed it is the same God for all humans. But here is where the challenge to your position arises: the way in which that reception is expressed, embodied and eventually lived out is the clearest expression of the way a person or a community relates to the divine self-offer. The expression IS God - a point we must overstate in order to make.

    Moreover, this means that the way a person, or a group, relates to God is also an expression of the self. Any theory that abstracts some essence of God behind that expression is really a reduction of the person's or community's expression of the way he or they configure the divine; a reduction to an abstract essence of divinity, which as such is really no God at all. It seems that your position, as outlined in this post, is challenged by being asked to explain how the unity you draw out is really the God of Jesus Christ rather than the abstract 'divine' of the philosophers.

    In the first example of how two Christians can relate differently to God, we can assert that it is the very person of Christ who enables this. For those who do not accept Christ as the very face of God, the very personal encounter of the fullness of divinity, the second person of the Trinity incarnate, then a different interpretation, rather than being merely another 'way of seeing God' can also become a counterfiet double - a dagnerous anti-image of God, intent on seducing the person precisely by appearing so similar, but intent really on leading one astray from Jesus Christ.

    To the example of the atheist and Scripture, it seems clear to me that this quite obviously assumes an 'object' as thing to which the two relate. The believer sees Scripture as the word of God. So she lives her life accordingly, and indeed Scripture becomes the 'words' by which she orients her actions, her thoughts, her desires, her entire self. In this case, Scripture IS in fact the word of God becuase it is that word by which she encounters her transcendent relatedness (as Rahner might say). But to the atheist, for whom Scipture is nothing more than a nice book of stories, it holds no efficacy in her existential act of being. But there IS something by which the atheist orients her transcendental relatedness, and in fact THIS serves as a kind of 'scripture'. Now, the veracity of that "text" (because it may not be a specific text as such, but something more abstract like an idea, or a historical person) which guides the atheist's life will be tested in the fires of trascendence eventually. And here is where the "Text" that guided the atheist will be revealed as a false 'god', finally unable to offer the atheist what she really desired - life in the midst of the overflow of the fullness of life. She will be like a house built on sand, washed away in the eschatological flood of God's grace.

    The point in all this is that while there are observable similarities between Christians and Moslims, it may be hasty to argue that it is the same God being worshiped. There are many moslims for whom this claim would be not only false, but even blasphemous.

    Again, I pose this as a challenge, and not a criticism. I am very sympathetic to your position, but I think that any hasty recognition of common properties can fail to recognize important differences - differences which are essential and not merely accidental. In Jesus Christ, God introduced His very own primary, concrete, difference; if we are to be loyal to the God of Jesus Christ, I think we must be careful not to reformulate this God as the God of the philosophers - that abstract, universal sense of 'divinity'.

    I await your insightful response.
    Brendan

     
  • At 12/18/2006 11:27 AM, Blogger Henry Karlson said…

    Brendan,

    I will get back to you and answer your questions in a week or two. This week I have a considerable amount of grading to do (over 60 papers to go over), and I also have to prepare for Christmas.

    Being with family, I also have to share the computer with others.

     
  • At 12/21/2006 11:46 PM, Blogger X-Cathedra said…

    Henry and Brendan,

    A very intriguing post, Henry. Islam has found a particular place among my thoughts as of late.

    Obviously, a balance is key. There must be an account that takes both the commonality and the differences into careful consideration. An over-emphasis of one or the other will only blind.

    I am very sympathetic to your position, Henry. The path of dialogue must be tread, and I think you have definitely put your finger on the way. As Brendan notes, I too see a certain challenge, or rather, a certain potential to overlook the important voice that the religious difference offers in one's relation to Islam. I'm quite sure you are aware of the importance of that balance, but I only mean to point to the potential to equivocate with the language of identity concerning God.

    We have, of course, at least two senses of identity functioning. Islam is a monotheistic sibling of ours, and Allah is quite simply the one God. From a standpoint of natural theology and how Allah reveals Himself in nature, there is not only potential but often actual agreement between our respective accounts of that revelation. Because Allah can be revealed through his cretion and natural reason, a gift to all of mankind, it is no wonder that St. Thomas was able to draw a "concept" of God similar to that of many of the Medieval Muslim theologians and philosophers. St. Thomas likely could have sat and chatted with Avicenna and his friends about Allah from the perspective of natural reason. So in a sense, it is the "god of the philosophers" or rather how Allah functions from the standpoint of natural reason that can be roughly identified in both religious traditions. This is not a minor foundation for establishing the identity between The Christian and Muslim God.

    Yet I imagine that both traditions will not be satisfied with a barren "god of the philosophers" abstracted away from the personal God they enter into communion with. The more substantial differences come out when both traditions offer varying accounts of God's gratuitous Revelation in salvation history, and with respect to how both traditions attempt to rectify the natural accounts with the supernatural (the god of philosophers and the God of believers). Here we can say in another sense that the Gods are not the same. For Christians, the God who is One, simple, omnipresent, pure act, etc. is perfectly revealed in the Trinitarian expression of the Son: Christ is simply the perfect self-expression of that same God, the fullness of the Godhead dwelling bodily. While for Muslims, the God who is One, simple, omnipresent, pure act, etc. is not revealed in the person of Christ in the same sense, since Jesus is but one very important messenger among many. Because each tradition must identify (to some extent) the God revealed in creation and the God revealed in salvation history, and because the accounts of Revelation differ, we find two functionally distinct "Gods." For how can the God of Jesus Christ be the same as that revealed by Christ the purely human prophet?

    So it seems to me that the notion of "sameness" is complex. It is a "yes and no," for Christians would say that Muslims serve the true God, Allah, but simply cannot see that Allah's full revelation IS Christ. In another sense, this opens the door for a substantial distinction. Insofar as Muslims serve a God whose identity is caught up in a different account of supernatural Revelation, the God originally acknowledged as the same by the eye of reason is more fully revealed to be a quite different deity.

    I'm interested to read what your thoughts are on how the different senses of sameness interact and determine the identity of God across these religious traditions.

    And on another note: now that finals are over, papers are turned in, and my academic chains have been broken, I should have plenty of material to put into posts. So I will hopefully put together my first post in the next few days.

    Salaam alaykum, and Pax Christi

    -Pat

     
  • At 12/22/2006 4:36 AM, Blogger Henry Karlson said…

    Surprisingly, I have a few minutes free in which I can offer some brief comments; however, I must first say they will not answer everything; indeed they will only show the direction I will go when I have the time and freedom to give a proper response.

    First, as you both know, I fully agree that Islam is deficient in its understanding of God; the fullness of revelation is revealed in the person Jesus Christ, and Islam (at least it has developed) has yet to incorporate this into their faith.

    Second, as Brendan knows, I do not consider God a thing and my tendency is to be very apophatic; there are indeed many problems with this approach, and these problems are also ones I have to face in my own theological method (especially here). Which is why I also agree with Dionysius that we must hold the apophatic approach while accepting positive revelation which transcends human reason, otherwise all claims are equal, and equally wrong - a nihilism which I deny, but can be very difficult to overcome.

    Third, when saying Islam shares the same God as Christianity, I can also say the same about Judaism. Judaism also does not know God as Trinity, even though we can find the Trinity throughout the Hebrew Scriptures, Judaism did not comprehend their revelation in this manner. Amazingly enough, one can find hints of the Trinity in the Koran -- hints which suggest to me something is coming through the message, however distorted it has become.

    However, I do say that there is more to the Islamic God than purely the God of the philosophers (but even the philosophers, one could suggest, and I would suggest, are inspired by the Spirit with a kind of revelation). God is also for them the God of Abraham. This key distinction begins to put a personal and revealed quality to Islam and Judaism which transcends a pure but impersonal "First Principle." It is also here where dialogue transcends the philosophical side and enters into questions of history and outright revelation.

    I will have to explore these and other issues later; I just thought it would help to show the direction I will be taking when I answer both or your questions. However, before I go, I wanted to point out that my position on Islam and Christianity sharing the same God seems to be the position of Vatican II in LG 16; also it is clearly what Pope John Paul II taught here.

    Pat-- I am looking forward to what you will be share here; it will be quite interesting, I am sure!

     
  • At 1/02/2007 1:43 PM, Blogger Henry Karlson said…

    It has been awhile since my original post. Obviously I have been quite busy, but now I can get back to the issue at hand. Several important questions have been raised, and I hope to provide at least the basic elements needed to answer them (although, as usual in this format, they will be limited, and will provide a rough idea of how I think about these issues; they will not be establish comprehensive and exhaustive analysis of my position).

    Before I respond to the questions at hand, I would like to set up some of the ideas I am trying to get across. While I think we have a general agreement on most of what I will say here, I believe I take these ideas further than most. Am I out of balance with how I take them? I hope not. Certainly these foundations can also lead to disagreements, and if this happens, as I expect it will, many important questions will be asked about what I have said. More than anything else, these questions I believe are of a fundamental importance to our time, and my ideas are only secondary to the questions themselves. Indeed, these questions I think are very difficult to answer, and in trying to answer them, I am more than willing to change my answer as need be.

    There are two significant points I have been trying to make, and I think we are closer in agreement in them than not:

    1) Not only on the level of natural theology, but on the level of revelation, I think Christians, Jews and Muslims share the same God. I do not think this common revelation is limited to these three religious traditions, but I think Judaism and Islam represent the two religions which are closest to Christianity, and at their core, are based upon some real revelatory experiences. Hence we find stated at Vatican II:

    “Finally, those who have not yet accepted the Gospel are related to the people of God in various ways. There is, first, that people to whom the covenants and promises were made, ands from whom Christ was born in the flesh (See Rom 9:4-5), a people in virtue of their election beloved for the sake of the fathers, for God never regret his gifts or his call (see Rom 11:28 – 29). But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, first among whom are the Moslems: they profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, who will judge humanity on the last day.” (Lumen Gentium) 16.)

    I believe Pope John Paul II also thought that Christians and Muslims share the same God. This is something he pointed out many times, and indeed, he even indicated that this was his consistent belief. “We Christians joyfully recognize the religious values we have in common with Islam. Today I would like to repeat what I said to young Muslims some years ago in Casablanca: "We believe in the same God, the one God, the living God, the God who created the world and brings his creatures to their perfection" (Insegnamenti, VIII/2, [1985], p. 497)” John Paul II On Islam

    Now I could be wrong here, but I tend to thinks this was also what Pope Benedict XVI was trying to show us in his prayer at the Blue Mosque. In his December 6th audience, he explained the prayer along the following lines: “In the area of interreligious dialogue, divine Providence granted me, almost at the end of my Journey, an unscheduled Visit which proved rather important: my Visit to Istanbul's famous Blue Mosque. Pausing for a few minutes of recollection in that place of prayer, I addressed the one Lord of Heaven and earth, the Merciful Father of all humanity. May all believers recognize that they are his creatures and witness to true brotherhood!" Paul Benedict XVI Audience In addressing God in the mosque, Benedict wanted to show the brotherhood we share together with the Muslims by sharing one God. This brotherhood does not – and should not – be seen as suggesting there is no disagreement between Christianity and Islam, but rather, it highlights the relationship we have in common with that one God.

    I do not think it is possible that the God of the Christians and the God of the Muslims can be different Gods. Of course we all know there is only one God, but more importantly, as Vatican II points out, Muslims adore the God of Abraham with us. This shows that there is more to Islam than natural revelation, but there is engagement with revelation history. Revelation is at the core of what is good and true in their religion. This does not mean they have the fullness of revelation (since that is found in the person of Jesus Christ), nor does it mean they have always appropriated or fully understood the revelation given to them (because if they had, they would not be in any fundamental disagreement with Christians).

    But I think one of the reasons why Islam has been a strong influence in world events and has continued to exist to this day is because of its core revelatory experience. Here I feel for Islam similar to how St Gamaliel might have felt of Christianity when he said “if this plan or undertaking is of human origin, it will fail; but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them” (Acts 5:38b-39a). This is not to say humanity with its corruption does not cover up much of that revelation; I think it does – it is a mixed blessing. As I have suggested, I think the original revelation should have led Arabs to the fullness of the faith in Christ. Something got in the way. What this is and how it got in the way are two of the most difficult and yet important questions about Islam we need to answer. Yet, whatever it is, I do believe that what God did reveal through the work of Mohammad has provided enough of a foundation for Islam to continue to this day and inspire one of the greatest religions the world has known.

    This leads to #2. I think this might be the most controversial point I hold to.

    #2) If Islam is founded upon some real, revelatory experience of Mohammad, then I can say with Catholicos Timothy I of Baghdad (728 – 823), that he is, “worthy of praise by all reasonable people […]. He walked in the path of the prophets, and trod in the tracks of the lovers of God” (Timothy is quoted in Fitzgerald and Borelli, Interfaith Dialogue: A Catholic View. (Maryknoll, New York: Orbis, 2006), 112). This is a very interesting assertion and does not say Mohammad is actually a prophet; it leaves it open and suggests if he were not, he is as close to one as one could be without being one.

    The question then is this:– what is a prophet? If it is one who speaks for God, as the title suggests, then I believe at least when he discussed his revelatory experiences, he was speaking for God and was a prophet. Yet there seems to be more to being a prophet than this, and it is why it is difficult to say yes and why it is difficult to say no. Moreover, it is open to how much of his teachings were revelatory in nature, and how much were of human understanding trying to ascertain the meaning of what he experienced. This question I do not think can be answered, because the only evidence we have, the Koran, really did not come directly from Mohammad. Islam as a religion I think is a mix of Mohammad’s basic revelatory experiences and a human construct used to enshrine it.

    But behind all human misunderstanding, I see the God of revelation, the God of Abraham. In this fashion, I tend to go beyond Catholicos Timothy and follow Paul of Antioch (referenced in my original post) in saying Mohammad was a prophet but of a limited revelation. It was meant to decrease, but the human side of things prevented this from happening.
    ----------------------------------

    Now I would like to respond to a few things both Brendan and Pat have mentioned. While it is going to make the post extremely long, I will address them one at a time, starting with what Brendan asked. All quotes will be in italics.

    Although you did not explicitly maintain this, and I know that it is not a principle you yourself espouse, the examples you gave bear a truth that is predicated upon the "thing-ness" of the object: God as 'thing', as 'the other to which we relate', or as 'extrinsic alterity'. In other words, the assumption behind both assertions - that two Christians relate differently to God, and that a beleiver and and an atheist each interprets the essence of Scripture differently - assumes that the object to which two disparate subjects relate is a completed, reified thing. This is more pronounced in the believer/atheist relation to Scripture, but it still seems at least present in the example of the various ways of understanding God between two Christians.

    Certainly we both agree here – I am not trying to suggest God is a “thing.” Indeed, because I generally like to look at God primarily in an apophatic way, this means that one of the first things I try to point is this very point: God is not a thing.

    However, we do try to understand God. In doing so, as Dionysius tells us, first and foremost we must rely upon revelation. We both know that this revelation is the purest representation of God we have, and the purest of all revelation is in the person of Jesus Christ, who is in his person the fullness of all revelation.

    But when we create such an understanding, that understanding, humanly speaking, is always an object. Neither of us believe that this object, our understanding, is God in itself as a thing, but rather points to God and the fullness of God within the Trinity. Most people, I would say, do not understand this distinction, and so most people are creating what I said, an object of understanding, and not just a pointer to God. That object of understanding should be a pointer I think we both agree; that it is not is just a fact of how we as humans objectify the world. So when I said the object of understanding differs from the understanding of the object, I think we are saying the same thing in different ways.

    In a way you are right and can say that different understands do lead to different Gods, because they lead to different objectifications. Only if that objectification is emptied would it become pointers to the true God. However, I would also suggest, when it comes to Islam and Christianity, we find they both accept the core theological understanding of God in that God is one who transcends our comprehension and this leads both to emptying all such objectification of our understanding. This leads both faiths at their best as holding dogmatic pointers to God instead of dogmatic utterances which end in themselves; how much this is true per individual believer I cannot say.

    Now, the point here is this: God is not any "thing" to which we human subjects relate. God is not some extrinsic other if by this we neglect the intrinsic dynamism by which and in which we are made into persons. God is the infinite beauty of being, who is constantly giving Himself to our act of being. God is no object since any conception of objectivity involves and requires limits. He does reveal Himself to us in and through objective revelation, but this is best understood (as it is in the work of Von Balthasar) as an overflow of objectivity; God's revelation is the objectivity that spills over into all subjects.

    Agreed, but I also think that metaphysically, if people do not empty their dogmatic constructs and turn them into pointers, they do end up creating idols, though as we have already discussed in other posts, I think both of us understand these idols as being mostly benign and could and should end up revealing, through the beauty contained in them, the source of all beauty, the true God beyond all objectification.

    Insofar as all human beings, then, are recipients and artisans of this overflow of God's offer of being, then indeed it is the same God for all humans. But here is where the challenge to your position arises: the way in which that reception is expressed, embodied and eventually lived out is the clearest expression of the way a person or a community relates to the divine self-offer. The expression IS God - a point we must overstate in order to make.

    Yet as we both have established with our previous discussion on idols, we might agree that there can be and indeed are problems with how communities relate to God, and yet there is still, behind these idols, more which draws one closer to God than divides us from him. Thus I have already made clear, I believe, while Islam and Christianity are close religions and share God beyond a merely natural revelation, but also a historical revelation in and through our relationship with Islam in Abraham, I have not said and do not want to suggest that our differences are meaningless. However, when discussing Islam, it becomes even more difficult to say what these differences are, because there is no one “Islam.” There are many ways Islam is expressed, and some I believe are much closer to us than they are to other Muslims, others are closer to natural revelation than they are to an Abrahamic religion. However, this is also true with how the Christian revelation has been realized in many of its communities. When I read the Koran, for example, there is much which just speaks of revelation – but it speaks as if it were revelation misunderstood, almost like the Greek Sibyls. Again a question I keep asking to myself as also to others, how and why is this – where is the misunderstanding? With Mohammad? With his followers? With those who memorized texts (we know how faulty memory can be)? With Abu Bakr? Certainly as Islam entered into human history and its central revelatory experience became more and more a part of the past, I believe it became more and more a “natural religion” and less and less a religion of revelation; only the People of God in the Church have the continued divine guidance through the Spirit to fully protect themselves from this problem.

    Moreover, this means that the way a person, or a group, relates to God is also an expression of the self. Any theory that abstracts some essence of God behind that expression is really a reduction of the person's or community's expression of the way he or they configure the divine; a reduction to an abstract essence of divinity, which as such is really no God at all. It seems that your position, as outlined in this post, is challenged by being asked to explain how the unity you draw out is really the God of Jesus Christ rather than the abstract 'divine' of the philosophers.

    I think this question has already been answered: I believe there is an element of revelation, perhaps even new (for the Arabs at least) which connects Islam to us; it is not just the God of the philosophers (which is in one way, God, as we both would know, just God as we can know him naturally), but a God of revelation, a God of history and action. As I have suggested, I even find hints of the Trinity in the Koran and reflected in many elements of Islamic theology; granted the human side, which does not understand the Trinity, has diverted itself from accepting the Trinity, even as the Jews have rejected the Trinity; so these elements are like the elements we find reflected within the Hebrew Scriptures – hints which can be read to an acceptance of the Trinity and seeing the Trinity as the fulfillment of what those hints mean, yet hints which also are difficult for people to follow on their own and for many to reject even as again the Jews have done. These hints, while enshrined in the Koran, I also find reflected in many Islamic theological writings – some which say Jesus is as close to being God as is possible for humans; why would they even suggest this if Jesus is just a prophet like all the rest? Yet the Koran says he is not – he is sinless, born of the Virgin Mary, the Spirit of God residing upon him. It is easy to see how many early Christians went the route that Islam went; it is of course wrong, but it is still within the same sphere of revelation.

    This again goes with what I was trying to suggest – that God acts and is experienced by others, even if their understanding and therefore relationship with God is faulty. Even those who reject God and have a false understanding of God in which they use to reject God (as we find with many atheists) have a relationship with the one God even if they do not know it. Islam however accepts God as a God of revelation and history, a God who transcends what human knowledge alone can know or comprehend (sometimes, going too far with this and as Pope Benedict XVI has shown, leading some Muslims, often fanatics, to having a removal of reason from God, making God an irrational tyrant to be obeyed), while being a God who is merciful and loving, a covenantal God.

    In the first example of how two Christians can relate differently to God, we can assert that it is the very person of Christ who enables this. For those who do not accept Christ as the very face of God, the very personal encounter of the fullness of divinity, the second person of the Trinity incarnate, then a different interpretation, rather than being merely another 'way of seeing God' can also become a counterfiet double - a dagnerous anti-image of God, intent on seducing the person precisely by appearing so similar, but intent really on leading one astray from Jesus Christ.

    Certainly there are those who follow the Christian revelation but do not take it to its fullest limit and so do not understand the incarnation and the Trinity. Yet, can we truly say they are leading people away from Christ when they point to Christ? It is the same question which we asked about idolatry. Yes, they are in error, and in one way they do lead away from God because of that error; but the elements of truth they also contain – out of holistic balance – can still be the means to return people to Christ. The same I will say about Islam; in fact, some of Islam I would say is better at this than some who follow Christian revelation. It’s a delicate balance and difficult to judge, but some of the Christian heresies I would say are far more in error than say many of the Sufis. Yet again, this is not to say this is the end; it is just a beginning; since there is beauty within Islam and since there is much truth which is in Islam, these will ultimately point to the source. And I find Islam to be on par with modern Judaism – which I would not want to say is a religion which does not follow the same God as the Christians, but I would clearly say it is a religion which has not fully appreciated the revelation given to it.

    To the example of the atheist and Scripture, it seems clear to me that this quite obviously assumes an 'object' as thing to which the two relate. The believer sees Scripture as the word of God. So she lives her life accordingly, and indeed Scripture becomes the 'words' by which she orients her actions, her thoughts, her desires, her entire self. In this case, Scripture IS in fact the word of God becuase it is that word by which she encounters her transcendent relatedness (as Rahner might say). But to the atheist, for whom Scipture is nothing more than a nice book of stories, it holds no efficacy in her existential act of being. But there IS something by which the atheist orients her transcendental relatedness, and in fact THIS serves as a kind of 'scripture'. Now, the veracity of that "text" (because it may not be a specific text as such, but something more abstract like an idea, or a historical person) which guides the atheist's life will be tested in the fires of trascendence eventually. And here is where the "Text" that guided the atheist will be revealed as a false 'god', finally unable to offer the atheist what she really desired - life in the midst of the overflow of the fullness of life. She will be like a house built on sand, washed away in the eschatological flood of God's grace.

    Granted; the point was only to explain how understanding can be and is different from the object of understanding, even if we say God is not an object, nonetheless our understanding of God is God as object. This is why systems fail, of course; because it turns God into what God is not; though those systems are best which understand this and make all the caveats necessary to show this while relying upon God to reveal God for who God is. Even then though there comes into play the understanding of what that revelation means and there it becomes objectified.

    What I said about Scripture can be and is true about many other things, including the relationship people have with one another.

    The point in all this is that while there are observable similarities between Christians and Moslims, it may be hasty to argue that it is the same God being worshiped. There are many moslims for whom this claim would be not only false, but even blasphemous.

    The same can be said about many Jews who will find it blasphemous for Christians to say Jesus is the Christ and God all in one, despite the Christian assertion that Jesus is the God of the Jews. I think the point I am trying to show is how the understanding of Christianity that takes and accepts Judaism and Islam as having the same God as Christianity because of our relationship with one another in the revelation of Abraham can be retained despite our different understandings. Thus I have pointed out that Christians, nay even Catholics, also understand God differently but relate to one another beyond our understanding in Christ; this however is also true with Judaism and Islam in our relationship with God as the God of Abraham (and Moses). Islam I find is closer to us than Judaism because of their acceptance of the messianic mission of Christ.

    Again, I pose this as a challenge, and not a criticism. I am very sympathetic to your position, but I think that any hasty recognition of common properties can fail to recognize important differences - differences which are essential and not merely accidental. In Jesus Christ, God introduced His very own primary, concrete, difference; if we are to be loyal to the God of Jesus Christ, I think we must be careful not to reformulate this God as the God of the philosophers - that abstract, universal sense of 'divinity'.

    I hope you really did not misunderstand me in denying the differences and in thinking those differences were seen as meaningless to me. Rather my point is that in our commonality which I believe transcends just natural theology allows us to share God in common beyond the God we share with the philosophers; moreover, it is because of this, because of our acceptance of the revealed God with one another that we can and should move forward, knowing what we have in common which is more than a bare abstract divinity. From this, I truly agree, we need to express our major differences, but here we need to work within many Islamic communities, and not treat Islam itself as one abstract entity. From each community we can find how much of the further revelation they accept, and what they do not, find why they do not, and then show how their position is inconsistent with the revelation they actually hold in common with us.

    I believe this was actually what Nicholas of Cusa intended with his De Pace Fidei. Indeed, I think it is fitting I quote Nicholas here, because it represents what I have been trying to say:

    “Hence, the Arab does not deny that God is Mind, and that the Word, or Wisdom, is begotten from Mind, and that from Mind and the Word proceeds the Spirit, or Love. And this is that Trinity which was explained above and which is posited by the Arabs, although most of them are not aware of the fact that they confess a trinity. Similarly, even in your prophets you Jews find |it written| that the heavens were formed by the Word of God and by His Spirit.

    “Now, in the manner in which Arabs and Jews deny the Trinity, assuredly it ought to be denied by all. But in the manner in which the truth of the Trinity is explained above, of necessity it will be embraced by all.” Nicholas of Cusa, De Pace Fidei. Trans. Jasper Hopkins. IX.26.

    While it would take a paper to present how the Trinity is explained in Nicholas of Cusa, his point I think is sound – Christians are monotheists, and we share with Jews and Muslims a monotheism which is not only a monotheism of the philosophers, but again, one of revelation with the God of Abraham. With the Jews and with the Muslims we find a rejection of the Trinity, more or less, because they misunderstand the Trinity along the lines of Tri-theism. If the Trinity is understood in the fashion they explain it, Christians also would reject such a Trinity. However, similar to the question of the filioque with the Greeks, if the Trinity was understood properly, the objections are not objections to how Christians understand the Trinity at all, and therefore their rejection of the Trinity is in reality not a rejection of the Trinity, but of Tri-theism alone. Christians can stand with them in that rejection; the difficulty is getting them to understand their objections are not based upon the Trinity but Tritheism. That is another matter.
    -----------------------------------

    Pat

    Obviously, a balance is key. There must be an account that takes both the commonality and the differences into careful consideration. An over-emphasis of one or the other will only blind.

    I fully agree. Balance is the key. This is why I have tried to suggest, following many others before me, we Christians share the same God with Muslims, but this is not to say we share the same understanding, nor that this misunderstanding is unimportant. I think that this probably needed to be said, however, and I hope it now has been clarified: I agree that this difference in understanding is important, but I am trying to say rooting that difference within the historical unity we have should give us more room and not end up going overboard in our rejection of Islam thereby rejecting what is actually good in Islam. Certainly the fanatical rejection of Islam and the demonizing of it I have seen by many in our day and age are the ones my original post was trying to address, and so reading it in that light, it should have provide context in how it tries to balance things out. If it were written for those few pluralists that think everything is equal, I would emphasize the differences a great deal more. I am not one who believes all is equal by any means!

    I am very sympathetic to your position, Henry. The path of dialogue must be tread, and I think you have definitely put your finger on the way. As Brendan notes, I too see a certain challenge, or rather, a certain potential to overlook the important voice that the religious difference offers in one's relation to Islam. I'm quite sure you are aware of the importance of that balance, but I only mean to point to the potential to equivocate with the language of identity concerning God.

    Certainly a rightful concern, and again, in a full dialogue with Islam this would be the second aspect – the first aspect is finding which we can use to unite, and finding out the ramification of those elements (as I think Nicholas did, btw), then to work out those differences which remain, find out why they are there, understand them, highlight the problems those differences suggest, and not end up just letting them go as meaningless. This is true for all dialogue. But again, I read we are in general agreement here – and I hope my explanation of what I wrote and why I wrote what I did and to whom it was meant has helped overcome these fears. Because I think the most important issue for me was not for who think we can and should dialogue with Islam but those who think Islam is completely and utterly foreign to us.

    We have, of course, at least two senses of identity functioning. Islam is a monotheistic sibling of ours, and Allah is quite simply the one God. From a standpoint of natural theology and how Allah reveals Himself in nature, there is not only potential but often actual agreement between our respective accounts of that revelation. Because Allah can be revealed through his cretion and natural reason, a gift to all of mankind, it is no wonder that St. Thomas was able to draw a "concept" of God similar to that of many of the Medieval Muslim theologians and philosophers. St. Thomas likely could have sat and chatted with Avicenna and his friends about Allah from the perspective of natural reason. So in a sense, it is the "god of the philosophers" or rather how Allah functions from the standpoint of natural reason that can be roughly identified in both religious traditions. This is not a minor foundation for establishing the identity between The Christian and Muslim God.

    Agreed, the God of the philosophers is not entirely an empty God, and it is a good foundation and why someone such as St Justin Martyr was able to effectively dialogue with many and why he posed a challenge to those who hated Christians. However, I do think there is more to Islam than the God of the philosophers; historically as things progressed, I think Islam drifted away from its original revelation and became more and more a natural theology (with the caveat being this is not the case with all in Islam; indeed, when Islam entered into India, I believe the incarnational aspects of Islamic revelation went into overdrive, and we find some odd associations, such as Muhammad with Brahma and Ali with Vishnu!), yet even then there was and is a revelation at its core, and it is here we can also interact in a way which transcends any generic divinity.

    Yet I imagine that both traditions will not be satisfied with a barren "god of the philosophers" abstracted away from the personal God they enter into communion with. The more substantial differences come out when both traditions offer varying accounts of God's gratuitous Revelation in salvation history, and with respect to how both traditions attempt to rectify the natural accounts with the supernatural (the god of philosophers and the God of believers). Here we can say in another sense that the Gods are not the same. For Christians, the God who is One, simple, omnipresent, pure act, etc. is perfectly revealed in the Trinitarian expression of the Son: Christ is simply the perfect self-expression of that same God, the fullness of the Godhead dwelling bodily. While for Muslims, the God who is One, simple, omnipresent, pure act, etc. is not revealed in the person of Christ in the same sense, since Jesus is but one very important messenger among many. Because each tradition must identify (to some extent) the God revealed in creation and the God revealed in salvation history, and because the accounts of Revelation differ, we find two functionally distinct "Gods." For how can the God of Jesus Christ be the same as that revealed by Christ the purely human prophet?

    Again this is where I would have to say we must be careful and not unify Islam. There is no one picture of Jesus in Islam. While there are some basic beliefs which transcend even Jewish revelation: Jesus is the Messiah, Born of the Virgin Mary, who will come again to judge the living and the dead, that is as far as it goes. Yet this is a considerable amount in and of itself. Beyond this, we can say many things: Some Muslims say Jesus died and was resurrected; others say he was not. Some say he is the greatest of all creation, next to God in his dignity (making that form of Islam a kind of Arianism, which again is in error, and yet one can see how it is a human error corrupting revelation, trying to understand divine mysteries and failing); others really humanize him and almost look like the low Christologies we find in modern theology (Christologies which I detest, btw – I am very high in my Christology).

    So it seems to me that the notion of "sameness" is complex. It is a "yes and no," for Christians would say that Muslims serve the true God, Allah, but simply cannot see that Allah's full revelation IS Christ. In another sense, this opens the door for a substantial distinction. Insofar as Muslims serve a God whose identity is caught up in a different account of supernatural Revelation, the God originally acknowledged as the same by the eye of reason is more fully revealed to be a quite different deity.

    This is what I believe I am also suggesting and why I also think we are in agreement – it is yes and no; the yes is being expressed in similar ways as you show here—in the way of revelation, in the experience of God in history, in the experience of the God of Abraham, and it is in this fashion that Vatican II and Pope John Paul II shows Christians and Muslims share the same God; however, I agree with the no, and it is why I pointed out where that no is – that no lies in our understanding, that no lies not only between Christians with Muslims but Christian with Christian; the more one incorporates the fullness of revelation, the more different his experience of God is and thereby God changes. This also I believe is an explanation for some of the changes of how God is seen even within Scripture. The same explanation can allow for a yes and no with our relationship with the Jews and with the Muslims.

    I'm interested to read what your thoughts are on how the different senses of sameness interact and determine the identity of God across these religious traditions.

    I hope I have provided some of these different senses and also by providing a context for my original post, a way to read it better and show that what might seem to separate us is not really doing so. Again, as I have said, I believe we not only have a sameness in the God of the philosophers, but also in a God who has revealed himself; even as Nicholas suggests, a Trinitarian God, though the Muslims do not appreciate that. They will find such a statement to be in error – but following the way the early Christians tried to show how the pagan sentiments were fulfilled in Christ, I really think the way to show the Trinity to the Muslims (and to the Jews) is to show how the Trinity is a fulfillment of their own religions tradition and not contrary to it. This is not easy, to be sure. But to do this effectively, we must also point out differences and why they are important – and to not do so would make me appear relativistic, which I hope by now it is clear I am not.

    And on another note: now that finals are over, papers are turned in, and my academic chains have been broken, I should have plenty of material to put into posts. So I will hopefully put together my first post in the next few days.

    I hope you have had a great feast of the Nativity, and I am really looking forward to your contributions here.

     
  • At 2/15/2008 5:16 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Muslim tradition would eventually make this the normative reading. But it was not the only one. Who is it that is saying ‘We have killed Christ Jesus?” Many Muslims scholars throughout history have said, “The Jews.” Yet did the Jews kill Jesus? No, it was the Romans. So even if he was crucified, this passage could be correct.


    Another reading would be to see this as a denial of the implicit claim that his enemibes had mastery over Christ, affirming that whatever they did they only did because He permitted it. Or you could also read it as an affirmation of the Resurrection, i.e, 'they thought they killed Christ but he has overcome death." Neither of these is a literal reading, but if that passage's the only evidence in the Koran for the view that Christ did not really die on the cross, both readings are possible.

    -Adam Greenwood

     

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